Interviewee/ Daksha Mashruwala
Interviewer/ Wang Yu Cheng (Coordinator of Text Records)
Proofreader/ Yu-Ting Huang (Curator)
Translator/ Artist Translation Service 譯術家專業翻譯工作室
About Traditional, Classical, and Contemporary Dance
Actually, I am still trying to understand more on contemporary, because I have grown up with the traditional dance, by traditional I mean a dance form that is evolve out of its indigenous tradition, Indian traditional will have Indian ethos, the Indian culture, the Indian tradition in its dance, like Taiwanese will have its own tradition, its own ethos. So traditional dance has been evolved, and develop according to the tradition of the region, the country, like in India, there are several traditions, not just one tradition, that is why we have so many classical dance styles, although they are all rooted in a very strong foundation, and grammar, of the Natya Shastra, which was written by Bharata Muni in 2nd century.
So all the Indian dance has its roots in the Natya Shastra, but the classicism depends on the flavor, the geography, the culture of different parts of India, like Odissi is from Orissa, which is the eastern India, Bharata Natyam is from Tamil Nadu, Chennai, which is south India, Kathak is from north India, Kuchipudi is from another state , Manipuri is from far east. So each classical has evolved taking the new essence, the cultural flavor, of that part. So according to me tradition and classical dance go hand in hand. The Classical dance evolved out of the tradition, actually all classical dances come from folk culture, like primitive dance, tribal dance, it is not very polished and defined, and classical dance become stylized and polished with following a particular grammar, so this is how I understand traditional and classical dance. It is like a tree, which has its roots very firm in the Natya Shastra, but it grows and branches out, and it changes, it is not what we believe like it was 2000 years ago, so tradition is like a river, it's flowing, it's gathering new elements, because even culture changes, even culture evolve, we are not static. With the changes of culture and region, Dances also evolves, It's like a language, you follow the grammar, but the vocabulary changes, the way you speak, the way you make a sentence, and the expression changes, it's very similar to that, so this much, I can very clearly say about, our tradition, or any tradition and classical dance.
Contemporary to me is a term which is not to be very different from what is Tradition and Classical, because everybody follows a tradition or a culture. and whatever you bring out from that, pertaining to the very contemporary time, could be the Contemporary dance, it is not something out of nothing, it comes from the culture and tradition of particular region. Surely, the contemporary dance of India would be more base in Indian body language, than a contemporary dancer of Taiwan or contemporary dancer of Europe, so contemporary dance is more according me, "A State of mind", and like I know one Koodiyattam dancer, Kapila Venu, has put it very nicely which I’ve mentioned earlier, is that "Any tradition which is relevant or appealing to a contemporary mind is also as good as contemporary dance," because what is contemporary?
The term "contemporary" sometimes mislead us into believing that it is like breaking away from tradition, yes, it has a little more freedom in a sense, you don't have to strictly abide to the grammar of the tradition of Natya Shastra, you are free to make things, you are free to evolve new movements which you may not be able to correlate into the traditional format.
And I have yet to understand exactly, because most contemporary dance that I see, I see a lot of rooting in whatever traditional dance has, like when an Odissi dancer is making a contemporary piece, although the mental frame is not using exactly our Odissi body, chouka, and tribhangi, but it just naturally, the body just comes with those dancers, and whatever movements are coming out from a Odissi dancers has the flavour and the roots in chouka or tribhangi, it's my observation.
And for example, when I was looking at the Paiwanese contemporary dancers, who have evolve their dance out of their Paiwan culture, from their traditional movements. Whenever I see even a western or eastern or different culture, I see a lot of similarities, so basically I think contemporary dance is something to do what a contemporary person sees around, observes and tries to incorporate things into his or her expression.
And in today's time, because the world has become very close to one another, we are able to absorb one another's movements, one another's body language, cultures, much more, and it comes easily, and hence, it’s influencing on each dancer a lot more, so an Indian dancer also takes a lot of inspiration from ballet and etc., of course for the Indian dance form like the martial art from Chhau, and from Kalaripayattu, and all the other art form, it takes inspiration from whatever one sees around, and makes their individual expression.
Also I believe that contemporary is much more about an individual's very own expression, even in traditional dance and classical dance, which used to be absolutely solo dancing, it's nowadays we have group choreography and we have all this visual and the demands is for more group dancing, it used to be solo expression, but it had the solo expression and for dance within the frame work within the grammar, of the dance style, while todays' contemporary dancers, I believe, it is that way more free to use whatever we see or observe something, this is how I try to understand what is contemporary dance.
Because the term contemporary is relevant to any classical or traditional dancers also, we have to be contemporary, we can not project the same sentiment that was 500 years ago, or thousands years ago, because it’s continuously changing, so even if I read a mythological epic, I have to bring in my own understand and interpretation of that piece. It will be influenced by what the author has written, and the what we called sthayi-bhava, that is the main, the core essence, has to be what the author has tried to convey, but interpretation will be very much our own, because we are not following only what has been taught to us, we are using our own intelligent, our own interpretation, so according to me that is contemporary thought, and that is what is relevant.
About Tjimur’s work, the Traditoanal item and the Contemporary item
I’ve been lucky that Tjimur's dancers came to India, and we shared a lot, and what I felt was that, they were trying to take in our culture, our dance, and trying to understand a lot more, we got an opportunity to see their work too, it's like when you dancers came to India, it was like a window was opened, and we came here, I feel it’s opened out the entire scenario, it's like opening out the whole house, the whole country to us, in this one studio of Tjimur Dance Theatre, I am able to see so much more, like just being here by looking around, everybody, and seeing the lifestyle here, because ultimately one can see how dance comes from the People, how dance really comes from the Culture, and it is very different then our body language, and our style.
Although I feel the traditional dancing of most cultures, I would say practicularly all cultures, whether it is African, Australian aboriginals, or the Paiwan, or the Indian tribal dancing, or the Native Americans, there are so many movements that are very similar, extremely similar, because ultimately it is a human body, that is expressing and it is mainly expressing the tribal dance is so much more connected to the nature...
We're talking about the tribal culture and the ancient culture of different parts of the world, why is there so much similarities, because when dance first came in the bodies of human being, it was so connected with nature, and nature is very universal, like I notice that every ancient or tribal culture, they are so much more connected with the nature, and hence similarities, they either talking of the sun, or the crops grow, or the way of trees are, way the birds sing, their inspiration has been so much more through nature.
And hence, in fact, very often me feel that it is too simple, it is too simplistic, it is too repetitive, which is there in all tribal and ancient dances, and yet, it is so very meditative without intellectualizing or without bringing in a lot, because the people live that life, and I feel a dance that has been live and which is danced, is much more genuine, there's no put on, even they're not taught, they just get up and they join hands and they feel each other's energy, like I see especially in the Paiwan culture, there is such strong energy passing through one another's body by holding hands and moving with that repetitive song going on, it just transfer to another world, and I feel it is really fascinating, it is so nice to see that the dancer here are trying to preserve the essence of this culture, I'm very happy with what Tjimur Dance Theatre working at, it is beautiful to see them rehearse their traditional base every single day, and then they start on their new works, and whatever they've been thinking, because it gives a fabulous foundation.
Even I just love to sit and come and watch them everyday just holding hands walking doing the same things, which we did in India too, they're doing it here with our dancers, and I just love it, there is something very genuine, something very basic, which I feel in today's world we are loosing, and hence it is very important, at least get an opportunity to reflect on how it used to be, it is very difficult to be living that life nowadays, I don't expect any dancer to be able to come and live and look at these beautiful mountains everyday, it is hard especially in India, but it is a beautiful setting here, and the opportunity given to the dancers is fantastic, and creativity comes when you have this kind of environment around you, so whatever it is provided here according to me, it is very special, very extraordinary, and it is a privilege for us also to be here and spend so much time, when we are cut off from the mad city life.
About their dance and the movement, I believe the artist and the choreographer have a very open mind in these three four days, I have been seen how keenly they are bringing out things how they're interested in learning or trying to understand what we do, and they’ve been very receptive to the dance that we're trying to show, and bring it out to their body, it's not just one time thing, okay we come and collaborate ,let’s learn and forget, I think it's much more then that, and that’s what I discussed to my dancers that it’s not here to learn contemporary dance, this is very relevant for any dancers, to share your culture. Because ultimately the world will become one, we're working towards it. I just love the way the dancers are given their space, and yet within the discipline, they are so particular about the way schedule is made. About the work we still in the process.
And about the collaboration part, it is very interesting and very stimulating to work with these dancers, because we're lucky we have dancers who can understand, and who can bring out, and have fabulously trained bodies much more, and I think there are a lot of difference.There's a bit of struggle, with the classical dancers trying to do the contemporary, because the contemporary dancers, not only here but everywhere, their body are much more tuned more versatile and able to do more things. While in classical dance are following one pattern of training, like we do Odissi, we try to only stick to only Odissi, we focus on our chouka and tribhangi and our torso and we're very conscious about being an Odissi dancer, while contemparary dancers, they're just a dancer, they don't have the tag or the label, of being within a frame of a Bharata Natyam dancer or a Kathak dancer.
We are in that way a little more restricted to not break away from classical dance, although according to me I never found it restrictive, I can do anything in Odissi, if I am ask to do any contemporary thought, or any expression that I want, or any subject that I want to deal with, I don't feel that I can not express in Odissi, I have conscious about my Odissi, but I am able to bring out whatever I want, so I've never felt the need to break away from Odissi, frankly for me the need hasn't come. While I see many dancers wanting to break away. It is a little subjective, how much you understand, how much you can stay within, and yet have the freedom, it's like an ocean, we haven't even explore enough, so that is a big difference that I see, with some people who try to give these boundaries to divide classical and contemporary. Oh this is contemporary ,classical dancer we said it’s too abstract. Contemporary dancers thinking classical dance doing the same thing the same god and depict the same subjects. But every dancer in depicting the same poem, according to me it is phenomenal it is so interesting to see how the same poem is interpreted expressed by different dancers, so this I that I feel that divide needn't be there between classical and contemporary.
About the lose of Tradition
I do believe bringing out something new, specially for the traditional for the classical dancer, one need a lot of experience, what we see in today, in wanting to experiment, if you have not gone into properly understanding, not study enough, not read enough, not seen enough, and you trying to bring out things of your own, everybody have the freedom to do it, so I'm not denying that, but what will last, is what really gone deep, and what really has got some content which can last for years, for the whole generation, and when things are time-tested, that becomes tradition.
After all what is tradition, the way we have wedding ceremony has changed in my 60 years of time life. I used to dress up 20 years back has changed, today salwar and kurta is tradition ,when I got married 40 years back, only saree was considered traditional even kurta was considered fashionable, so these are the tradition changing, same thing in dance, so many things are changing. So what we called at least for a few generation, what is time-tested, and what lasts, what is appealing today, if it can at least continue for another 50 years, 100 years, that is good enough, and it about to change, even the costume of the way Odissi dancers dress up today, or the way Kathakali all these people they say it is very traditional costume, yes it is traditional, it's been going on for 1500 years, but hundreds years back it was not like this, it was different so we are changing every hundred years, so tradition does not mean the way people dress, they live in the forest, that needn't be the term traditional, so time will tell.
And a gook work that is superficial , maybe glamorous, it’s like films, how quickly they go outdated? But there are some very old classic film, that's why they're called classics, even today we just love to watch them, the one is not good, we forget about them, the one is really good will stay becomes traditional classical. Things are always changing, Change is mainly itself, every moment are changing, this is not the same from what I saw 2 minutes back, it changed, something has changed. How can we deny change? We can not stick and hold on to anything. So one has to be that way open, or yet it’s like walking carefully, don't want to trip, fall and hurt.